Here's the story.
Should the Kim Family have turned around here?
Or should they have turned around here?
Or should they have turned around here?
Or the fourth sign that told them the road was likely impassable?
Do you keep going if you see this sign?
Here's the story in the O:
Kim family mistook impassable road as main route to Oregon Coast, authorities say
James and Kati Kim initially had planned to take a well-traveled highway to the Oregon Coast as part of their trip but mistakenly took a snow-covered U.S. Forest Service road that led them to get stranded in a mountainous area, authorities said today.
Thanks to the Rogue River Siskyou National Forest officials for providing pictures to the Victoria Taft Show of the official signage on the road where the Kim family became stranded.
Please pray for James' safe return.
Tuesday, December 05, 2006
UPDATE: JAMES KIM FOUND DEAD.
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39 comments:
Well, if I was a traveler from out of state, and I see signs that say "MAY BE" with conditions that look similar to those in the pictures, I wouldn't hesitate too much in taking that route...
Is this the "it's his own damn fault his family was stranded and he's still lost" post? If not it sure reads that way, and kind of diminishes your calls of prayer for his safe return.
The sign was not in Hispanic. Some may only have been trained to look for Hispanic writing. Welcome to Ormexico.
I hope they find him OK.
He may have dumped his pants because extreme cold messes with brain signals.
q,
You'd do yourself a favor to limit your postings to your own site (which is very cool btw).
I was overjoyed to find out that the Mother and daughters were found. Thank God for their being discovered. My hope and prayer is that they do find James Kim. Sometimes people feel invinsible....and they make choices that are not the best...and realize it later when there is not alot they can do about it. I am just thankful that they were found. Let's pray for Mr. Kim.....
q,
Thank you for posting here, had you not, I would not have found your cool site.
r=,
Thank you for pointing out that q had a cool site.
We talked about this case at lunch, and the reason he ditched the pants (q's post has the same reason we thought). Along with this we discussed the future of gps in phones, and the ability of a tower to pick up a phone signal even if the phones tells you it can not get a signal.
Lots of people are praying.
His fault or not, I think it is beyond the point where that even matters.
Victoria, did you know he used Google to get his map? We discussed this at lunch today also. (No, I am not even advocating that you blame Google).
My apologies q - I did not know yet that they had "found" his pants when I last posted.
I read your posting "dumped" as something else entirely. I'm relived to realize you weren't using the situation as an opportunity to be crude. ;)
No, honestly, those signs don't really look all that ominous if you are not familiar with mountains (I'm not). When they missed their turn and saw what appears on some maps to be a direct route, they took it. Maybe if the signs straight up said treacherous terrain - no cars in winter/logging road not maintained/road closed in winter, etc. it would seem more alarming. Aside from that, it's not always easy to turn around once you realize that you are in trouble - maybe they could have, I wasn't there, but have you seen some of the drop offs? Yikes. In Gifford Pinchot in WA State one summer I remember being in a similar car (Subaru version) on a road that kept getting more and more narrow, and we simply couldn't find a place to turn around without fear of going over the edge. That was with no snow/ice. Again, not sure if that's what happened, but I think we need to admire how Kati kept herself and children alive and cut them some slack until the father is safe. Then we can all say with superiority what we would have done differently. Until then, let's just pray/think good thoughts/hope for a happy reunion and leave blame for for another day.
All (That I've tried) online maps have a disclaimer, urging you to double check before traveling and not solely relying on their maps and directions. I remember using a GPS driving along the Columbia River on marine drive and the GPS insisted that I was over 200 feet to the left of where I should be, which, would have been the river.
I learned a long time ago that extreme temperatures can get you to do the opposite of what you should.
That's what I had meant with him dumping his pants.
My first comment was more of a reaction to signs I've been seeing all over Portland and they are in Hispanic, stating that they speak Hispanic and I didn't see any that said they spoke in English written in English. etc. etc.
I'm glad you like my site, please visit www.SterlingWolf.com which will take you to a story and leave a comment at the bottom of that page.
Thanks!!
Q
PS. If you have a cell phone that's no longer being used with a service, Charge it up, put in plastic seal able bag, toss in trunk or glove compartment. Most cell phones will let you dial 911 nowadays even without service, as long as they can reach a cell tower. Put on your colander to check it every month or so and make sure it's still charged. If you have an active cell phone, buy an extra car adapter and keep it also in the trunk.
PSS. Email yourself your intended travel plans. If you come up missing and the Feds check your computer, you will have given them some clues.
The main question is why did the husband separate from his family?
By now he would have been found.
But yes, if I see signs like this at this point in my travel, or have a low tank of gas, I'm pretty bummed.
Taking children that young into
a road warning of snow is not wise,
especially if it true they were
traveling at night.
Let's pray he comes out alive.
Please Lord, I pray they find James ALIVE so he can be reunited with his family. They were so strong for him that I pray he is FOUND!!!
James, we're told, got the map from the Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce. It could be a Google map. The map also said that this road was usually closed during the winter. Do you suppose they thought they could have still tried it because it wasn't officially 'winter' yet? I'm trying to think of a reason a guy does this with four warning signs. I'm not trying to dump on this family tragedy, I'm merely asking a legit question. Does anyone have an insight?
Here it is:
http://sockpuppeteers.blogspot.com/
Speaking for myself only, I would have never taken my family on such a route. If I found snow getting deeper and deeper on an unfamiliar route, I would have turned around long before getting stuck.
In the end, I pray they find him alive and he is reunited with his family. I'm thankful his family was found and they are recovering.
I am also impressed with the resourcefulness of the wife by nursing both of her children to help keep them nourished while they awaited rescue.
that 4th pic is the same as the first
Last month, searchers rescued a Vancouver, Wash., family stuck in the Mount Hood area for almost two days while looking for a Christmas tree. And last March, an Ashland family was stranded for 17 days on the same road between Grants Pass and Gold Beach before two adults hiked nine miles to a road and were rescued......
Every years this happens in Oregon...It is a shame every time but people need to take their families saftey into account FIRST..I found myself on a nasty "shortcut" near Ollallie lake last summer. I knew I didn't have 4 wheel drive or an approppriate auto & even though I had a cell phone, camping gear & plenty of food, we turned around, backtracked & lost 45 minutes..sometimes a "shortcut" isn't worth it.
yes..the fourth pic is the same as the first.
I just put it in there to go along with the question there.
I wonder if the feds should just close that road in the winter and be done with it so that city folk don't make the same mistake the Kims did.
If the road is "impassible" in winter it should be closed. A number of sketchy roads in the Mt. Hood forests have large boulders placed at the entrance, making them unavailable to passenger cars, but still allowing snowmobiles, x-country skiers..etc.
As far as the mapquest/google map subject, I work at a B&B, visited by guests from all over the world & I am CONSTANTLY amazed by the backwards confusing directions they have procured from the internet. 9 times out of ten when our guests call frustrated & lost they have internet directions, which should only be used in conjunction with an accurate Thomas guide, or quality atlas if you are traveling in unfamiliar area.
I sincerely hope that this man is found alive, but perhaps everyone else will learn a valuable lesson about risk, preparedness, the cruelty of nature & not to rely solely on technological devices..
Sadly, Foxnews is currently reporting James Kims body was found this morning.
My sympathies and condolences go out to his family.
Its easy to say that they never should have been on the road in the first place. I'm up the woods quite a bit with my buddy who owns a log truck company. We have been in a few sketchy situations, but never go out without supplies. #1 we always have a vehichle made for this situation, ie: 4x4 truck with a winch and cb radio. #2 Chain saw and supplies, ie: tools and can of gas.#3 Boots, gloves, heavy coat, blanket behind the seat. #4 Roadside evergency kit (that everybody should have in their car anyways, with reflective emergency blanket, flashlight, and road flares. #5 and some may not agree, but a firearm. You just don't go into the woods w/o one. You never know who or what you might run into. I am deep in the woods just about every weekend. this time of year is the worst. People are excited about playing in the snow, and are up trying to harvest a Christmas tree. A week and a half ago, we were up by a logging camp, and on the road side were atleast half a dozen vehicles that had no business being where they were. They passed the sigh that said "Caution, log trucks only beyond this point, channel 13." We pass the 2 subaru outbacks, a suzuki mini-van, a pathfinder, and 2 little 2wd mini trucks on out way to the top. When we got to the camp, it was snowing like nobody's business. One of the loader guys is just starting to take off down the road in the plow, to try and clear the road enough to haul timber out on Monday morning. We follow him out and he drives right by all of the cars parked on the pull outs, leaving a 3 foot snow wall blocking these folks in. "Not my problem, they should have read the sign" the old man says. My point is, follow the signs, cause you never know what could happen up there.
Ignoring sound survival advice to stay with the vehicle, did Mr. Kim set off into the woods with a compass? Map? Appropriate clothing? Food?
Shovel in the car? Axe? Winch? Shelter?
Big surprise all they found is a body.
Boo-hoo, self-inflicted wound.
Ummm...There is ZERO snow in these pictures and they were taken around the same time of this incident?
I see "watch for ice" signs in July in Portland when it's 97 degrees out. So me, If I saw these signs and there was NO SNOW on the road, I would likely keep going as well.
I fail to see the relevance of these signs to this story. If the area was completely covered in snow and you could barely see the road, then I would heed the warning just as I would heed the warning of the "watch for ice" sign in the freezing cold of February in Portland after/during rain, snow or sleet.
Now I of course know snow melts, but I don't think it would melt THAT fast as to make a few days difference between these pictures and a wintery wonderland that supposedely existed at the point of these signs when the Kim's were there.
Thanks,
Scott in Sandy
"Shovel in the car? Axe? Winch? Shelter?"
What average person or family, heading out on a weekend road trip, keeps that kind of stuff in their car? tromatic, your delusional pragmatism is leaving you irrational and cold hearted. It appears all too easy for you to sit in your warm home behind your keyboard bestowing your intellectual diarrhea upon us, while lacking any demonstration that you are remotely human.
"What average person or family, heading out on a weekend road trip, keeps that kind of stuff in their car?"
Not that I agree with the twit you're talking about, but our family does. Food, water, blankets etc in the trunk as "survival gear"; not a significant amount, but enough that I'm condifent that if we found ourselves stranded for a week or so we would survive; we wouldn't be happy and comfy, but we'd be alive.
And that's just what we keep in our cars all the time, going on a trip we have much more.
What I really don't get is this, if the conditions you are driving in are THAT BAD at the time you are still able to drive, why not turn around and go back?
I hear about these things every now and then where some family gets "stranded" in the woods/snow - whatever for X amount of time; I can never understand how people get themselves into these messes in the first place...But maybe it takes getting yourself into one to understand it, so hopefully I never will.
"But maybe it takes getting yourself into one to understand it..."
And we have a winner! It's easy for all of us watching the situation on the news, playing Monday morning quarterback, to be aghast as to how this family could have even put themselves is such a situation. How could they ignore all these signs? Why didn't they have all the necessary equipment to survive in such a situation? Why did Mr. Kim leave his car when they were going to be found just days later? Why didn't they just turn around?
Don't get me wrong, it's great after the fact to consider the situation, and make it a valuable lesson for yourself in preparedness. But I just don't get the disposition of the first reaction to such a tragic tale to be "what did they expect," or "they should have known better."
And scott, I'd put you outside of the "average" category for survival gear in your auto. Almost no one I know has anything in their car, besides the supplied spare tire. As for turning around, perhaps by the time they had made it as far as they did, the option to turn around was not available, due to drifting snow. It's very possible to start a drive over such a pass with clear roads, only for it to get ugly real quick.
Scott in Sandy,
I'm wondering if I would have done the same at the time. No snow. Why not?
Exactly...Which is what makes me wonder why the warning pictures are relevant to this story?
[edit to above] - unless of course you really feel we need to do something about the signs in general, but in the brief parts of todays show that I caught, I got the feeling any hint of support to do more with signs was sarcasim...but really, how seriously are people taking the watch for ice signs when they are still saying the same thing in July in 97 degree weather?
Google maps is taking a beating for choosing this route. They are not alone.
Check out Microsoft Mappoint 2006. Create a route start point in Grants Pass, and a route end point out at the coast. In the Route Options section tell Mappoint you "like" "Interstate and limited access highways". Tell Mappoint you "dislike" Other Highways, Arterial roads, and Toll roads. Mappoint will promptly create a route over forest service roads.
True, end responsibility ultimately resides with the person behind the wheel. However, these electronic mapping tools (include the expensive ones like Mappoint) could use some work.
In one of my earlier posts, to this discussion, I mentioned that a Google map had been used.
I can not verify this, nor can I locate the original article my friend was reading when she told me this. (We both tried and could not find it).
I am not certain that we did not mis-interpret something, related to where a map, used in the news article, came from.
I apologize for posting something without taking the effort to verify it.
I have seen the news, posted on the internet, change (i.e. what looks like the same article changes wording and/or facts). An example would be what Gates said about us not winning the war the other day. I know the wording in at least one of the posted articles was changed at some point. (Or maybe I am crazier than I previously thought).
I think that the demand to get news out as quickly as possible has lead to a lower standard of information verification.
The "someone said" journalism standard, which used to be limited to the tabloids, has become more predominant.
Being one to not have any experience with GPS systems, how does their reliability in creating a route of travel compare with services like Google Maps, MapQuest, etc.?
Coboble,
Gates did in fact, when asked if we were winning the war, say "No." After lunch recess, upon seeing various news reports of his comments, he released another statement to clarify his intentions by saying "No," in efforts to not undermine the troops.
bs, Gates other words right after the 'no sir' answer he gave showed more insight into his views and clarified his answer, in my opinion. His after lunch comments were due more to how fast the lamestream media focused on only the 'no sir' answer.
Back on topic, James Kim made a fatal blunder that cost him his life. It's tragic and sad, but his wife and children survived. No need to berate him more.
In discussing what happened, we all should learn from his error and make efforts to avoid similar mistakes. I've always felt it was better to avoid a situation than to brag later how you got out of one.
Lew,
I don't recall many words directly after "No, sir" that said anything else at all on his views as to winning or not winning. Since we're splitting hairs and all...what did you mean?
(Full transcript)
And what's this about puppies?
bs, from an early article on his confirmation hearing:
"Our military wins the battles that we fight," Gates said. "Where we're having our challenges, frankly, are in the areas of stabilization and political developments and so on."
Asked later whether announcing a specific troop withdrawal timetable would send a signal of U.S. weakness, Gates said it "would essentially tell (the insurgents) how long they have to wait until we're gone."
"Our course over the next year or two will determine whether the American and Iraqi people and the next president of the United States will face a slowly but steadily improving situation in Iraq and in the region or will face the very real risk, and possible reality, of a regional conflagration," Gates said.
"It seems to me that the United States is going to have to have some kind of presence in Iraq for a long time ... but it could be with a dramatically smaller number of U.S. forces than are there today," Gates said.
Gates wins unanimous committee approval
One aspect left out of any mentions about "stabilization and political developments and so on," are the so ons. With the neverending constant drone of defeatism coming from the left, starting within days of the Afghanistan invasion and continuing into the Iraqi invasion, our enemies have seen they need only wait us out, as did the North Vietnamese forces.
Even the announcement of the Surrender Monkey's report has now emboldened the enemies into already declaring victory.
Right in a Left World: Iraq Group Report; Road to Peace or Another Sell Out?
Puppies, you'll have to ask Victoria. But, I do agree, they are cute, as are kittens.
I apologize; I didn’t mean to get us off subject. I only mentioned the Gates thing because I was speaking of how the news articles (on the web) change before my very eyes, and this was an example I was certain I had seen change. When I could not find an article I was certain I had seen the day before, I began to wonder if the Kim news story had done the same thing.
As far as puppies go, was that comment supposed to be a code for something else, or just a warm fuzzy feeling thing that was needed after depressing news?
Sockpuppet and your namesakes and people pretending to be me will be deleted.
Let's try to keep the conversation on task.
You show yourselves to be uninformed, infantile, and unhelpful. Go start your own blog or go to my latest blog:
www.sockpuppeteer.blogspot.com
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