Friday, December 15, 2006

Gordon Smith: Read This and Make Sure Iraq Doesn't Become 'A Last Helicopter' Scenario



From the Wall Street Journal in March. Read it. Know it. Don't let the 'Last Helicopter' Theory occur here. Man up. Don't be a squish. We need a leader.


Read this too.

AT WAR

'The Last Helicopter'
Mideast dictators try to "wait Bush out." They may be miscalculating.

BY AMIR TAHERI
Wednesday, March 29, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

Hassan Abbasi has a dream--a helicopter doing an arabesque in cloudy skies to avoid being shot at from the ground. On board are the last of the "fleeing Americans," forced out of the Dar al-Islam (The Abode of Islam) by "the Army of Muhammad." Presented by his friends as "The Dr. Kissinger of Islam," Mr. Abbasi is "professor of strategy" at the Islamic Republic's Revolutionary Guard Corps University and, according to Tehran sources, the principal foreign policy voice in President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's new radical administration.

For the past several weeks Mr. Abbasi has been addressing crowds of Guard and Baseej Mustadafin (Mobilization of the Dispossessed) officers in Tehran with a simple theme: The U.S. does not have the stomach for a long conflict and will soon revert to its traditional policy of "running away," leaving Afghanistan and Iraq, indeed the whole of the Middle East, to be reshaped by Iran and its regional allies.

To hear Mr. Abbasi tell it the entire recent history of the U.S. could be narrated with the help of the image of "the last helicopter." It was that image in Saigon that concluded the Vietnam War under Gerald Ford. Jimmy Carter had five helicopters fleeing from the Iranian desert, leaving behind the charred corpses of eight American soldiers. Under Ronald Reagan the helicopters carried the corpses of 241 Marines murdered in their sleep in a Hezbollah suicide attack. Under the first President Bush, the helicopter flew from Safwan, in southern Iraq, with Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf aboard, leaving behind Saddam Hussein's generals, who could not believe why they had been allowed live to fight their domestic foes, and America, another day. Bill Clinton's helicopter was a Black Hawk, downed in Mogadishu and delivering 16 American soldiers into the hands of a murderous crowd.

According to this theory, President George W. Bush is an "aberration," a leader out of sync with his nation's character and no more than a brief nightmare for those who oppose the creation of an "American Middle East." Messrs. Abbasi and Ahmadinejad have concluded that there will be no helicopter as long as George W. Bush is in the White House. But they believe that whoever succeeds him, Democrat or Republican, will revive the helicopter image to extricate the U.S. from a complex situation that few Americans appear to understand.

Mr. Ahmadinejad's defiant rhetoric is based on a strategy known in Middle Eastern capitals as "waiting Bush out." "We are sure the U.S. will return to saner policies," says Manuchehr Motakki, Iran's new Foreign Minister.

Mr. Ahmadinejad believes that the world is heading for a clash of civilizations with the Middle East as the main battlefield. In that clash Iran will lead the Muslim world against the "Crusader-Zionist camp" led by America. Mr. Bush might have led the U.S. into "a brief moment of triumph." But the U.S. is a "sunset" (ofuli) power while Iran is a sunrise (tolu'ee) one and, once Mr. Bush is gone, a future president would admit defeat and order a retreat as all of Mr. Bush's predecessors have done since Jimmy Carter.

Mr. Ahmadinejad also notes that Iran has just "reached the Mediterranean" thanks to its strong presence in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. He used that message to convince Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to adopt a defiant position vis-à-vis the U.N. investigation of the murder of Rafiq Hariri, a former prime minister of Lebanon. His argument was that once Mr. Bush is gone, the U.N., too, will revert to its traditional lethargy. "They can pass resolutions until they are blue in the face," Mr. Ahmadinejad told a gathering of Hezbollah, Hamas and other radical Arab leaders in Tehran last month.

According to sources in Tehran and Damascus, Mr. Assad had pondered the option of "doing a Gadhafi" by toning down his regime's anti-American posture. Since last February, however, he has revived Syria's militant rhetoric and dismissed those who advocated a rapprochement with Washington. Iran has rewarded him with a set of cut-price oil, soft loans and grants totaling $1.2 billion. In response Syria has increased its support for terrorists going to fight in Iraq and revived its network of agents in Lebanon, in a bid to frustrate that country's democratic ambitions.

It is not only in Tehran and Damascus that the game of "waiting Bush out" is played with determination. In recent visits to several regional capitals, this writer was struck by the popularity of this new game from Islamabad to Rabat. The general assumption is that Mr. Bush's plan to help democratize the heartland of Islam is fading under an avalanche of partisan attacks inside the U.S. The effect of this assumption can be witnessed everywhere.

In Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf has shelved his plan, forged under pressure from Washington, to foster a popular front to fight terrorism by lifting restrictions against the country's major political parties and allowing their exiled leaders to return. There is every indication that next year's elections will be choreographed to prevent the emergence of an effective opposition. In Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, arguably the most pro-American leader in the region, is cautiously shaping his post-Bush strategy by courting Tehran and playing the Pushtun ethnic card against his rivals.

In Turkey, the "moderate" Islamist government of Recep Tayyip Erdogan is slowly but surely putting the democratization process into reverse gear. With the post-Bush era in mind, Mr. Erdogan has started a purge of the judiciary and a transfer of religious endowments to sections of the private sector controlled by his party's supporters. There are fears that next year's general election would not take place on a level playing field.

Even in Iraq the sentiment that the U.S. will not remain as committed as it has been under Mr. Bush is producing strange results. While Shiite politicians are rushing to Tehran to seek a reinsurance policy, some Sunni leaders are having second thoughts about their decision to join the democratization process. "What happens after Bush?" demands Salih al-Mutlak, a rising star of Iraqi Sunni leaders. The Iraqi Kurds have clearly decided to slow down all measures that would bind them closer to the Iraqi state. Again, they claim that they have to "take precautions in case the Americans run away."

There are more signs that the initial excitement created by Mr. Bush's democratization project may be on the wane. Saudi Arabia has put its national dialogue program on hold and has decided to focus on economic rather than political reform. In Bahrain, too, the political reform machine has been put into rear-gear, while in Qatar all talk of a new democratic constitution to set up a constitutional monarchy has subsided. In Jordan the security services are making a spectacular comeback, putting an end to a brief moment of hopes for reform. As for Egypt, Hosni Mubarak has decided to indefinitely postpone local elections, a clear sign that the Bush-inspired scenario is in trouble. Tunisia and Morocco, too, have joined the game by stopping much-advertised reform projects while Islamist radicals are regrouping and testing the waters at all levels.

But how valid is the assumption that Mr. Bush is an aberration and that his successor will "run away"? It was to find answers that this writer spent several days in the U.S., especially Washington and New York, meeting ordinary Americans and senior leaders, including potential presidential candidates from both parties. While Mr. Bush's approval ratings, now in free fall, and the increasingly bitter American debate on Iraq may lend some credence to the "helicopter" theory, I found no evidence that anyone in the American leadership elite supported a cut-and-run strategy.

The reason was that almost all realized that the 9/11 attacks have changed the way most Americans see the world and their own place in it. Running away from Saigon, the Iranian desert, Beirut, Safwan and Mogadishu was not hard to sell to the average American, because he was sure that the story would end there; the enemies left behind would not pursue their campaign within the U.S. itself. The enemies that America is now facing in the jihadist archipelago, however, are dedicated to the destruction of the U.S. as the world knows it today.

Those who have based their strategy on waiting Mr. Bush out may find to their cost that they have, once again, misread not only American politics but the realities of a world far more complex than it was even a decade ago. Mr. Bush may be a uniquely decisive, some might say reckless, leader. But a visitor to the U.S. soon finds out that he represents the American mood much more than the polls suggest.

Mr. Taheri is author of "L'Irak: Le Dessous Des Cartes" (Editions Complexe, 2002).


37 comments:

Spc Ziegler said...

Good morning,

I apologies for posting this in an open thread but I could not find an email address

I found your blog this morning and spent some time reading.

As military public affairs it is our mission to report to the public what its military is doing. In the past this was done solely via the main stream media. Today, with the advent and growing popularity of blogs, we have been reaching out to those of you who operate and are involved in discussions involving the war and the military.

Would you like to be on our email list? We send out press releases and stories of breaking news as events warrant. Also, we are always looking to gain more exposure to our website and to invite people interested in the events in the Middle East to use our site as another source of information. With that said, I ask that you consider adding a link to www.centcom.mil

You can also receive our press releases via an automated daily email feed via Feedburner by using the link below.

Subscribe to US CENTCOM Press Releases by Email

I appreciate your time and hope to hear back from you.

V/R
Spc. Patrick Ziegler
U.S. Central Command
Public Affairs
zieglepa@centcom.mil

Lew Waters said...

With all the left's, and a few RINO politico's running around spewing their defeatism, perhaps it is time they shut up and listened to our troops involved in fighting this war;

Why am I more patient than someone sitting at home in Fort ‘Livingroom’?”

And, since Kerry is still running to foreign governments spreading his defeatism, A Message to John Kerry: “We Are Winning”

Honest Abe said...

The troops will listen to US, the citizens, as WE pay their salaries, Mr. Waters. They don't get paid to think, they get paid to do their job. If the American people in the majority want them home, it is the job of our representatives to do their job and make that happen.

The soldiers that have time to flap their gums about where they think they should be, need to pipe down. Period!

Lew Waters said...

Let me ask, 'abe," does your "soldiers that have time to flap their gums about where they think they should be, need to pipe down" comment also apply to those few that speak against the war? Such as, John 'F'in Kerry did in 1971?

Kodiak said...

abe,

Tell me where in the laws of this country that a soldiers forfet their rights of free speech after all that is why through out our history they have fought wars.

I'll bet you are one of those lefties that complained that Bush was not listening to the Generals (ie the ones that retired and turned around and complained about how the war was being fought). I guess that it is ok is the soldiers speech supports your leftie position otherwise shut up. A former chief justice of the supreme court said that the first amendment to the Constitution is there to protect speech the you disagree with not to protect speech that you agree with.

coboble said...

Abe,
I think the saying that soldiers "Don't get paid to think" is bogus. I figured this out the first day of Basic Training when my Drill Sergeant asked me if I had a brain. I think I may have responded asking what I needed one for. (I was actually quite stupid when I was 18).
Ever since then, statements related to Soldiers not being paid to think, have always sort of bothered me, and I can not figure out why everyone can not see just how bogus the statement is.

However, depending on the rank and job of the soldier, I am not certain that being a solider, makes one really any more qualified than many non-soldier citizens, to know if we can win this war or what the outcome will be if we just leave.
In fact very intelligent, highly educated, experts in Middle East affairs don't really know. If the experts agreed than those in a position to make a decision would easily know what to do. But the experts don't agree. The more I read on the subject, the more I am convinced that this issue is so much more complex than global warming.

I did find this whole image of a "last helicopter" rather moving.
It leaves me with a definite image, possibly shifting my own bias some.

Klatu said...

Dishonest abe: Your wrongggggggg.
The Military stopped Listening to the American Communist Left, back during Vietnam. Sen. Gordon Smith has to listen to his Voters. You may call yourself "THE MAJORITY" but it won't last. The Military Knows it was Socialist Communist Democrats that were SPITTING on them at the end of Vietnam, and they won't forget it. PIPE DOWN? I dought it communist. The Military will continue to speak up because the LAMESTREAM MEDIA continues to LIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE about the war,just like they did during Vietnam.

Victoria Taft said...

I think Gordon is trying to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory with his latest.

Lew Waters said...

It seems the entire hate America left is opting for once again, snatching defeat from victory.

I would like to hear why Smith, all of a sudden and after several years of the Clinton Whitehouse quoting the same intelligence, is it considered false once Bush quotes it and finally takes the needed action?

threlfeld said...

The disbanding of the Baath party and the army, the insufficient troops and armor. One is left to wonder what might have been had the invasion/occupation been run more competently. Perhaps we would be victorious today.

Fizziwigg said...

Who lost Iraq? We have the "dead-enders," who defend the war to this day and maintain – against all the evidence – that it's the media that is distorting the true situation on the ground in Iraq.


Although dwindling in number, President Bush's defenders will ascribe failure in Iraq to a loss of nerve, blaming media bias and liberal defeatists for sowing the erroneous impression that the war has become unwinnable. The media didn't create the fact that, three years after U.S. troops entered Baghdad, we have lost control of Iraq's capital city – and the situation in the rest of the country is rapidly approaching meltdown. They are merely reporting it.

The U.S. establishment has slowly come to the realization that the war, as it is presently being fought, cannot be won, and this has given rise to "the buck-stops-at-the-top camp," currently in the ascendant, which ascribes "the troubles roiling Iraq to massive incompetence in the Bush administration."
"In a war notable for an absence of accountability, demands for fixing accountability are becoming increasingly insistent.

Lew Waters said...

Had the hate America first left not started referring to the War on Terror as a "quagmire" within days of invading Afghanistan and had the hate all America left not lied and misrepresented Iraq, one wonders how it would be going today also.

Al Qaeda and Bin Laden learned well the lesson General Vo Ngyuen Giap left. Just prolong the fight and the hate America first crowd will raise enough ruckus to deceive the public as to what is actually happening and cause a defeat from victory ..... again.

last I heard, nothing is lost as long as were fighting,fizzi. Your statement embodies well the hate America first rhetoric.

Fizziwigg said...

"Last I heard, nothing is lost as long as were fighting,"...... except of course the lives and limbs of our soldiers.

Cramdown said...

The Global War on Terror is a fraud.

Bush and Cheney have never been interested in fighting or even confronting terrorism. In fact, their interest is in exploiting 9/11 and terrorism for monetary and political gain, for themselves and their favorite corporations. That is why they attacked Iraq, which had "nothing" to do with 9/11 - as Bush recently admitted. The result: we now have more terrorists than we had on 9/12, and that's according to US Intelligence estimates.

Mongo7 said...

I LOVE THIS COUNTRY AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE '' THE WORLDS GREATEST SUPERPOWER'' CAN'T WIN A WAR. WE LOST KOREA WE LOST VIETNAM WE LOST LEBANNON WE LOST AFGANASTAN OR AT LEAST ARE TRYING TO LOSE, AND WE LOST IRAQ.THE REPUBLICANS ALWAYS SAY THE DEMOCRATS ARE WEAK ON DEFENSE, WHILE THEY ARE THE ONES THAT KEEP LETTING US LOSE.THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN LIVING OFF THE WIN IN WW2 FOR SIXTY YEARS.WELL FOLKS IT IS TIME TO TELL THE TRUTH, THE REPUBLICANS CAN'T RUN THE PENTAGON, THEY CAN'T EVEN RUN THE BORDER WITH MEXICO.WE NEED TO BRING ALL AMERICAN FORCES HOME UNTIL WE AS A COUNTRY DECIDE IF WE WANT TO WIN IN WARS OR NOT.THE SCARY TRUTH IS REPUBLICANS MAKE MASIVE AMOUNTS OF MONEY OFF WARS.

Victoria Taft said...

The de baathification is now considered a wrong move. At the time it made sense. The army disintegrated; removing itself into the city scapes. One misstep was failing to kill al Sadr.

Lew Waters said...

"Last I heard, nothing is lost as long as were fighting,"...... except of course the lives and limbs of our soldiers.

Who VOLUNTEERED for Military Service and Reenlist to return and finish the fight. As yourself what one Soldier asked Rumsfeld, Why am I more patient than someone sitting at home in Fort ‘Livingroom’?”

They desire to finish the fight and win, why do you oppose the very ones you claim to support?

The Global War on Terror is a fraud.

Will you repeat that once the suicide bombings start in our malls?

I LOVE THIS COUNTRY AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE '' THE WORLDS GREATEST SUPERPOWER'' CAN'T WIN A WAR.

Want to win? Try supporting the fight and opposing the Democrat party when they pull out all the stops to interfere with the prosecution of the war and misrepresent it so they can attain political power.

It can be won, it must be won. If not, you can count on fighting them here, and very probably by our children and grandchildren.

Cramdown said...

“Who VOLUNTEERED for Military Service and Reenlist to return and finish the fight.” It should follow that we will have no difficulty in getting another 40,000 or so to enlist to finish the job. Dream on.

Sorry, the scare tactics no longer work. The most damage done to this country by terrorists was done by Saudis and Egyptions. I fail to see how US control of civil strife between Iragi Sunnis and Shiites is going to effect terrorist attacks in the US, one way or the other.


“Want to win? Try supporting the fight and opposing the Democrat party when they pull out all the stops to interfere with the prosecution of the war and misrepresent it so they can attain political power.”

The Bush administration has single handedly interfered with the prosecution of the war and misrepresented it to the American people to retain political power. The interference resulted in a fiasco. The November 7, election results showed that continued misrepresentations do not work. Irreparble damage has been done. Don’t blame the Democrats.

Mongo7 said...

"To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of war.

Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent -- ominously, dreadfully silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing.

We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.

And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world."

Sen. Robert Byrd - Senate Floor speech February 12, 2003.

Too bad we don't have more Democratic interference like this

Lew Waters said...

Sen. Robert Byrd - Senate Floor speech February 12, 2003. Too bad we don't have more Democratic interference like this

"The U.S. should strike [Iraq], strike hard and strike decisively. In this instance, the administration needs to act sooner rather than later," Sen. Robert C. Byrd, West Virginia Democrat, said on Nov. 14, 1998.

Byrd, in his 20s then, did not serve in the military during the war, working instead as a welder in a Baltimore shipyard assembling warships and in the KKK holding the titles "Kleagle", which indicated a Klan recruiter, and "Exalted Cyclops".

"[The Ku Klux Klan] is an effective force in the struggle against communism and in the promotion of traditional American values."
--Robert C. Byrd, speaking as a "Klegal" [recruiter] for the Klan, 1942
"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side" Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds"
-- Robert C. Byrd, in a letter to Sen. Theodore Bilbo (D-MS), 1945
“The Klan is needed today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia. It is necessary that the order be promoted immediately and in every state in the Union. Will you please inform me as to the possibilities of rebuilding the Klan realm of W. Va.”
-- State Rep. Robert C. Byrd, letter to the West Virginia KKK Grand Wizard, 1948

No civil rights act has been introduced into America for 82 years. If this one goes through successfully...the Democrats stand a great chance of losing in 1960 with a future presidential candidate. Otherwise, one would hope for maintaining party unity and get the support of the South’s Democrats for ‘killing the bill’"
-- Congressman Robert C. Byrd, on Eisenhower's Civil Rights Act, Sept. 9 1957
"I intend to filibuster the bill that is to be labeled the so-called '1964 Civil Rights Act'. I have searched the scriptures in vain for its justification. I have found none. Segregation of the races is a way of life, and I intend to keep it that way."
--Senator Robert C. Byrd, to Democratic caucus, April 29, 1964
"There will never be a Negro on the US Supreme Court, I can guarantee you that. Mr. Marshall holds views with our dangerous to this nation and our posterity. I know a group of Senators, who, like myself...will hold up his confirmation vote for months if we have to."
--Senator Robert C. Byrd, June 1967

“There are white n*****s. I've seen a lot of white n*****s in my time. I'm going to use that word. We just need to work together to make our country a better country, and I'd just as soon quit talking about it so much.”
--Senator Robert C. Byrd in a Fox News Interview, March 4, 2001

Voted NO on authorizing use of military force against Iraq.
H.J.Res. 114; Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002. The administration would be required to report to Congress that diplomatic options have been exhausted before, or within 48 hours after military action has started. Every 60 days the president would also be required to submit a progress report to Congress.
Reference: Bill H.J.RES.114 ; vote number 2002-237 on Oct 11, 2002
Voted YES on allowing all necessary force in Kosovo.
Majority Leader Trent Lott motioned to kill the resolution that would have authorized the president to "use all necessary forces and other means," in cooperation with U.S. allies to accomplish objectives in Yugoslavia.
Status: Motion to Table Agreed to Y)78; N)22
Reference: Motion to table S. J. Res. 20; Bill S. J. Res. 20 ; vote number 1999-98 on May 4, 1999
Voted YES on authorizing air strikes in Kosovo.
Vote to adopt a resolution to authorize the President to conduct military air operations and missile strikes in cooperation with NATO against Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro).
Reference: Bill S.Con.Res 21 ; vote number 1999-57 on Mar 23, 1999

"Too bad we don't have more Democratic interference like this."

Mongo7 said...

Attacking the man rather than a critical analysis of what he said in February 2003. So typical of the hollow arguments for this baseless war. Those who are now twenty-something percenters are so marginalized that they have nothing left.

Lew Waters said...

LOL, Mongo, typical leftist. I did not make a single comment about Byrd, but listed some of his votes and quotes.

Odd that the left is 'exposing' when they quote the right, but when we offer direct quotes, we are attacking.

If what we on the right said and did 30 odd years ago matters today, so does what those on the left. No double standards, son.

Mongo7 said...

And still no critique of the quote. Hmmmmm!

RightieDave said...

Mongo7, if you are waiting for Lew to admit the reality of Iraq, you are waiting for Godot. I truely believe that Bush will come around long before Lew ever does.

Loyalingrate said...

1. Bush oversold the threat.
2. Bush undersold the cost.
3. Bush gambled and lost.
4. Bush accused the Democrats of having no plan for Iraq. His problem is that after Baker-Hamilton, a Pentagon review and a new Defense secretary, he has no new-and-improved Iraq strategy to announce, i.e. no plan

Fizziwigg said...

Loyalingrate, Bush has a potential plan of adding more troops. The Joint Chiefs appear to be in opposition. It will be interesting to see if Bush ignores the military on this one. Can you imagine a Democratic president ignoring the military? The Repugs would be talking impeachment.

Cramdown said...

The President has full support of certain US corporations and the King of Saudi Arabia. That allows him to ignore the opinions of our military leaders and the American people.

Lew Waters said...

That allows him to ignore the opinions of our military leaders and the American people.

Making up 'facts' again, crammie?

As for the reality of Iraq, I have been facing it and waiting for the left to stop politicizing it and let's get together and win it. I guess that is too much to expect, though, America actually winning another war.

Ya'll really should visit the link Spc. Zeigler supplied and see just what is being done there. There are some other sites as well, from our Military leaders and the troops that the left says are being ignored.

As for Byrd's 'quote,' mongo, what makes him an authority at all? During World War Two, when he was in his twenties and available for Military Service, he instead served in the Ku Klux Klan. Last I heard, the Klan isn't the Reserves, so the title of draft dodger wouldn't be applied to him like others who served in the Reserves or Guard .... if they are conservatives.

Mongo7 said...

I was hoping that rather than you playing to the stereotype of a dead-ender, you would actually point out and debate the fallacies, inaccuracies, etc. (if any) of Byrd's quote. No such luck

Lew Waters said...

If you place such importance in someone who instead of serving in the Military during WW2 (The great generation, remember?) spent his time recruiting for the Ku Klux Klan, opposed any legislation to grant Blacks equality, voted against Black nominees for SCOTUS continually, filibustered the Civil Rights Bill, and is pretty much the king of pork in the Senate, than perhaps it is you who should be pointing out the relevance of his words, as well as why you place so much importance in them.

Lew Waters said...

Since you like quotes so much, try Hillary’s from April 2004;

"No, I don't regret giving the president authority because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States, and clearly, Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for the international community for more than a decade."

And,

"The consensus was the same, from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration," she said. "It was the same intelligence belief that our allies and friends around the world shared.

But especially,

"But I think that in the case of the [Bush] administration, they really believed it.”

Does that mean that she and her husband, B.J. Clinton, didn’t believe the intelligence they gathered together to justify the 1998 attacks on Iraq named Operation Desert Fox?

Yet today, she says she too was misled and now regrets the vote? This is your hopeful front runner for POTUS in 08?

Mongo7 said...

One can reasonably argue whether or not we should have gone to war in Iraq. What is not arguable is the palpable incompetence of this administration in prosecuting the war, thus bringing us to our current predicament.

coboble said...

mango,
Actually it is arguable.
For any of us non-experts to label this as incompetence is somewhat arrogant.

In fact I think it is the perception of people as incompetent failures, when they admit their own mistakes so they can move on to a new plan, may often cause people to put more effort into proving they are right than in seeking the best solution.

Politicians who feel an obligation to disagree with any good ideas from the opposing political party is inhibiting progress. People who label politicians as Rinos or Dinos for thinking on their own on something like the war (since neither political party is pro war for the pure sake of war or anti defending our country when necessary); also inhibit progress.

What never ceases to amaze me is how many common folk know the answer when the experts can not even agree.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Mongo7 said...

Coboble, I do not claim to be an expert, nor do I think that my opinion that this administration has incompetently handled this war and occupation is necessarily profound. I have drawn my conclusion from the opinions of experts, including, interestingly enough. Neocons and war architects such as Richard Perle, Kenneth Adelman, David Frum and Michael Rubin.

Neither our president nor his supporters on this blog will admit to any mistakes. Bush has said that we are neither winnning or losing. I feel that situation will not change until a new administration is in office. Until then we stay the course and pay and pay.

I appreciate Democrats and Republicans who think on their own, rather than in lock step with any ideology. Unfortunately, they are few and often damned for doing so.

Lew Waters said...

mongo, what you cannot fathom is that many people, on both siedwes of the political spectrum, do think independently and agree with those you disagree with.

Your "experts" are not the final word and surprisngly enough, other "experts" disagree with them.

I formulate my opinions based on what I see and hear direct from the troops and world conditions. I also remember what it is like to be in a good fight and have too many classify you as a "monster" or "war criminal" for baseless accusations laid forth by political opportunists.

Political grandstanding and war do not mix.

Mongo7 said...

"Your 'experts' are not the final word and surprisngly enough, other 'experts' disagree with them." I did not say that they were. Please list experts you respect who believe the war has been conducted competently. I will be happy to consider and evaluate their opinions.

Sorry about your Vietnam baggage. Neither I, nor anyone personally known to me ever referred to Vietnam servicemen as a "monster" or "war criminal". Believe it or not, all those who served in Vietnam were not rightwing Republicans.

I respect what the troops say and report. After all it was the troops who reported on Abu Ghraib, Haditha, and the shortage of armor.

“Political grandstanding and war do not mix.” The administration may now realize this after the November elections.

Lew Waters said...

Mongo, who better than I know that not all who served in Viet Nam were Republican, Democrat or other political persuasions. Point in fact, I was a Democrat when I served. We even had an efeminate Black guy in my unit who stated time and time again he wasn't "gay," but a female impersonator in civilian life. He never came on to anybody, did his duty and completed his tour honorably. No one really cared whether he was gay or not, just that he held up his end and did his part, which he did.

While he may not be "personally" known to you, it was none other than John 'F'in Kerry who labeled us as "monsters," "War criminals" and "murderers" in his "testimony" given before the Fulbright Commission in 1971.

I carry no "baggage" over Viet Nam itself. What I do carry is deep memories of the mistreatment many of us received from the anti-war left who today tries to deny they did it.

As for who I consider an expert that I listen to, retired General Tommy Franks, the generals actually prosecuting the war currently also receive my attention before those retired before it started and who were never involved in it. There is also the Heritage Foundation that lists many successes the lamestream media refuses to list.

Another you probably won't care for is retired Lt. Col. Oliver North for visitng the troops so often and giving firsthand reports from the troops themselves.

Some others that helped me come to the thoughts I have are:

"This is, unfortunately, the war of the future. The Osama bin Laden organization has basically declared war on Americans and has made very clear that these are all Americans, anywhere." Madeleine Albright.

"This is an evil that is directed at the United States. It's going to persist." Sandy Berger.

"We are in this for the long haul." Thomas Pickering.

"The decision to use force is never cost-free. Whenever American forces are placed in harm's way, we risk the loss of life. And while our strikes are focused on Iraq's military capabilities, there will be unintended Iraqi casualties. Indeed, in the past, Saddam has intentionally placed Iraqi civilians in harm's way in a cynical bid to sway international opinion. We must be prepared for these realities. At the same time, Saddam should have absolutely no doubt if he lashes out at his neighbors, we will respond forcefully. Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction."

"If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors. He will make war on his own people. And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them." Former President B.J. Clinton.

"No, I don't regret giving the president authority because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States, and clearly, Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for the international community for more than a decade."

"The consensus [on WMDs] was the same, from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration," she said. "It was the same intelligence belief that our allies and friends around the world shared." Former First lady, Senator and hopeful President, Hillary Clinton.

"This should not be a strike consisting only of a handful of cruise missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of presumed symbolic value. But how long this military action might continue and how it may escalate should Saddam remain intransigent and how extensive would be its reach are for the Security Council and our allies to know and for Saddam Hussein ultimately to find out.”

“Should the resolve of our allies wane to pursue this matter until an acceptable inspection process has been reinstituted--which I hope will not occur and which I am pleased to say at this moment does not seem to have even begun--the United States must not lose its resolve to take action.” Self proclaimed war hero, admitted unprosecuted war criminal, Senator and failed Presidential Candidate, John 'F'in Kerry.