Can I get a wha what? It's in Willamette Week here. After a discussion about this real smart illegal alien kid we come to the Oregon legislative response to his ability to afford college. To which we learn:"With the help of newly elected state Rep. Ben Cannon, a Democrat who respresents the Franklin High area, the Oregon Students of Color Coalition[say what?] plans to introduce legislation in the next session that, if approved, would grant undocumented immigrants eligibility for enrollment at public universities and in state tuition rates. House Speaker-to-be-Jeff Merkley says, "There's a great case to be made for this legislation because we all benefit if each individual succeeds to their full potential."
Left on the cutting room floor, of course, is the taxpayers' response to such an effort. It is, of course, the tax payers who subsidize the tuition of in state students.
And we should subsidize illegal aliens because????
I love the last line of the story. It's from the kid's mother who states:
"We are responsible for him bing a criminal. Don't care about us, but care about him."
Wednesday, November 15, 2006
Politically Tone Deaf Oregon State Democrat: Let's Give In State Tuition to Illegal Aliens!
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37 comments:
Victoria,
You claim to be a Christian, and a member of the "religious right" (You stated this on your radio show.)
I can not help but wonder where your views come from. Doesn't the Religious Right use the Bible as their reference?
From the Bible:
"When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God." [Leviticus 19:33-34]
Since your views on this subject do not seem very biblical to me, I am wondering if your views are more based on economic selfishness. I admit that my own views are often economically selfish and at times I may not even recognize the reason for my bias.
This particular kid is likely to become a productive tax-paying citizen. As our population ages the make up of our population (percent of old to percent of young working age) is shifting toward more in the "old" bracket. I believe that it is in my economic self interest to educate this kid.
Coboble, I'm sure in the same book you quote from, you'll find some references to "wolf in sheep's clothing." Sadly, the Bible is just another political tool for Victoria and her crowd.
The fruit she bears is a much better indicator of her person than what she "says" she is.
Do any of you people actually read the Bible and study the context?
Well we're not just making guesses as to what's in there Vic...
I assume you disagree with said interpretation?
coboble,
How about we all come over to your house and make ourselves at home. We'll be sure to raid the fridge, use your computer and anything else of value.
Hey maybe we'll become tax paying citizens of good standing as we enjoy your home and everything in it.
r,
What part of illegal do you not understand?
Ya know maybe we are attacking this problem from the wrong angle. We can save a lot of money if we just get rid of law enforcement. Open everything up no laws against anything including the usuals rape, murder etc.
Throw open the gate to the jails and prisons let them all out.
Heck we can get rid of Government, elected officials and elections. We will not need Driver licenses nor those who issue them. Sound good to you.
What good are any laws if you do not enforce them?
That's funny kodiak, I don't remember opining on the topic at hand at all in any of my two whopping posts.
Sure, I may be off topic, but don't go puttin' opinions in my mouth.
Victoria ,
Yes I have and do, but can not speak for this group you call “You People” as I am only one person. I have studied with multiple denominations of Christianity to include some of those which the Religious Right would quickly label as Cults, and with some they would consider Christians. Perhaps my problem is that rather than picking one, and immersing myself into only one denomination’s interpretation, I choose to look at multiple belief systems and interpretations. I do consider myself to be a follower of Christ’s teachings (based on his sermon at the mount) and I am not certain where my views on the rest of the Bible stand right now. I am still seeking the truth.
What do you think that God meant with this statement. Maybe God intended for me to bring the quote to your attention. I am also open to the possibility that God wants me to see your response, as a part of my own growth.
All this uproar over illegal imigration just doesnt grab me. The big gripe appears to be that they dont pay there fair share of taxes while draining U.S. government services. Fences wont stop them and we cant easily throw the existing 12 million illegals out. What we can do however is replace our corupt federal income tax system with a revenue neutral federal sales tax. The U.S. would than capture a newly created revenue stream expanding our tax base.
All this uproar over illegal immigration just doesn’t grab me. The big gripe appears to be that they don’t pay there fair share of taxes while draining U.S. government services. Fences wont stop them and we cant easily throw the existing 12 million illegals out. What we can do however is replace our corrupt federal income tax system with a revenue neutral federal sales tax. The U.S. would than capture a newly created revenue stream expanding our tax base. I have no problem with anyone living here if they are willing to pay their fair taxes and respect the individual rights of others.
Kodiak,
I have heard this “What part of illegal do you not understand” argument before, pretty much worded exactly the same way with the same examples. This argument has been floating around for a long time, and people who hear it tend to repeat it. I wonder how much thought the argument is given before being repeated. So before I totally tear it apart, let me ask you a few questions.
1) Do you equate all acts which are Illegal with all other acts which are Illegal?
2) Do you think that anyone who does not do so, does not understand what “Illegal” means?
3) What is your view on providing services to U.S. born children of illegal immigrants?
Your economic argument has more validity, at least when discussing many of the issues with illegal immigration. (I have some level of conflict within myself, between the economic side and what I view as the "moral" side of the whole immigration argument.)
However, in this particular case, we are talking about allowing a kid, whose parents have worked in this state, paying taxes, for several years, to attend college and pay in-state tuition. We are also talking about a kid who is highly likely to become a future tax payer.
So even the economic side of me is ok with this kid attending a state college at in-state tuition rates.
Kodiak,
If you were really in need of food and/or shelter, I would help you, but not by letting you into my home. My experiences with taking in the homeless have never worked out well. I will not likely do this again. I admit to being selfish.
Coboble, like you, I have studied the bible in depth with various religions, both left and right. On teh surface your Leviticus scripture comes across as saying we should welcome everyone, regardless of matters.
Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.(NIV)
I don't see it as oppressive to expect those coming into the country to obey our laws. Just as when I was in both Germany and Viet Nam, not only was I subjected to the UCMJ, we also had to obey the laws of the countries we were in.
America has always welcomed immigrants and I imagine will continue to do so, provided they come here legally, just as if we visited their countries.
coboble,
In light of this recent posting I would like to respond to you and other readers of this blog with my story. I came to oregon nine years ago. I have family in florida who requested us to come legally back in 1986, it took 12 years of waiting patiently in my home country before we could move here. Because my family wanted my siblings and I to learn the language quickly we came to oregon right away.
I will be honest with you but maybe twice in my time in Oregon someone has been rude to me because of my heavy accent, but besides that Oregon has been a very pleasant experience because most individuals actually treat you well here.
When you quoted the bible, you cannot be more wrong about that interpretation. The bible also mention Jesus saying "...give to Caesar what is of Caesar and give to God what is of God..". I am a christian and I love my fellow residents of this state but I could not permit them to find it acceptable to brake the law and then take advantage of benefits given to those who follow it.
The issue is not about being harsh or evil against a kid, the issue is that by permitting such a thing we make auk to brake the laws and ignore the foundation of this society as well as the economy. I will agree that individuals choose to come here because in our home countries corruption, abuse of power and unfair labor laws are the norm; and in this country even if you are consider poor the conditions are better.
If the kids becomes a productive citizen, he might have to do so in his home land and wait like many other like myself the time needed to come here legally. While I attended high school my GPA was 3.81, and I only did my senior year then I attended college, I bring that up because I assure that a 3.51 GPA is not near close to be consider genius.
He might be a bright kid and eager to learn and better himself, but he cannot proceed over those born or authorized to be here legally just because of how well he has done in school.
Another issue is that by speaking about his situation and the millions of other illegals we always blame and insult the UNITED States as if this was all our fault. I wish to see politicians call out mexico, guatemala, el salvador (my home country) for their abuse of power and corruption their theft of funds that should be directed to the development of their economies and the raise of quality of life for those living in that country. If people are so proud of their country that avoid or don't try as hard as other immigrant to assimilate and learn the language by bother being here.
I want to see organization such as Mecha, OCHA, and the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce taken a stand against the corruption of the politicians in Latin America instead of always telling how bad our government is. I have a lot of bad feeling towards latinos that always use the I am a minority card and "everything is to hard for me", I saw that in college and sicken me.
So, If someone is asking the state to make an special law for them I will be against it, If you visit my country and don't have the legal ppwk you go to jail, pay the fine and be deported simple. Does anyone tell El Salvador that is not fair. Mexico deports hundreds of illegal immigrants a month, unless of course there is a "mordida" pay to them..
In other words you are wrong and the kid does not deserve a break ....
Victoria please keep up the good work...
Angel Adrian
Lew,
I have some issues with Romans 13:1, in that I see examples of governments which I have a very hard time believing are established by God. And if they were, are those who have engaged in wars to over turn them breaking God‘s law? This country was formed based on rebellion against an existing Government, which involved breaking the laws of that Government. Even Jesus was breaking the law of the Government.
However, for the purpose of the immigration discussion, I will put my issues with Romans 13 aside. I do believe that I am obligated to follow the laws of the governing authority unless those laws break a higher law(such as God’s law).
My belief that I am obligated to follow certain laws, is not what dictates my behavior toward others who may have broken one of those laws. If a person fails to follow law X, this does not mean that I am relieved of my responsibility to treat this person in accordance with law Y (either national laws or God’s laws). If someone is hungry, God would not want them to trespass onto my land and steal my food. However, God would still want me to provide them with food (even if it is by giving them a way to earn their food), even if they did trespass onto my land.
At some point, I don’t have the resources to feed everyone who is hungry. But we are not there yet.
Of course I believe in locking people up for laws which make the person a threat to me. For those who want to equate breaking an immigration law by being here, with other laws (such as murder, rape and manslaughter), I disagree.
I will address this point in another comment (later).
Angel
I actually do agree with a lot of what you are saying.
I don’t agree with everything, nor am I convinced that I am “wrong” (at least not yet.)
I address some of your points (related to the quote “"...give to Caesar what is of Caesar and give to God what is of God..") in my response to Lew (above).
I might address the other points tomorrow.
Even where I disagree with you, I do not think your view is “wrong”.
If someone is hungry, God would not want them to trespass onto my land and steal my food. However, God would still want me to provide them with food (even if it is by giving them a way to earn their food), even if they did trespass onto my land.
Not to be argumentative, but couldn't God desire them to provide food in their own land as well? Shouldn't it be upon their governments and citizens to first care for each other instead of sending them up here?
Also, even though you have problem with Romans, where does that give any the right to disobey our laws just because the wish to? Doesn't the Bible also say something like "we all have our crosses to bear?" Granted, maybe our immigration laws are too harsh and could be streamlined, but that still doesn't give them any right to violate our existing laws, especially when many otehrs wait and come here legally in accordance with the law.
On another point, your scripture from Leviticus says to not oppress, or abuse, depending on Bible version. Many that do come here end up working in substandard fields for substandard wages (even though more than they could make in their homeland). Some are hired by companies are basically become the new slave class. Isn't that oppressing them? It seems to me that it is.
NAFTA was passed and it was implemented just as Congress changed hands in 1994. It was designed to encourage jobs and growth in places like Mexico. What happened? It was to give them work there to keep them from wanting to come up here. Too many American companies jumped on the low wage bandwagon and shipped jobs down south. And still, they cross the borders illegally and in great danger and end up slaves, other than those who come just to milk the bennies.
To me, that just doesn't seem compatible with your quoted scripture.
At some point, I don’t have the resources to feed everyone who is hungry. But we are not there yet.
We are closer than many realize. In this case, resources would be extravagant taxes to pay benefits to those didn't participate, cirumvented our laws and as long as they are willing to work below minimum wage, greedy companies will take advantage of that.
If cheap labor wasn't readily available, those same greedy employers would be forced to pay a decent wage to citizens and those who migrated here legally.
Then too, I believe I read where some 25 billion or so dollars were sent down to Mexico last year by illegals. That, if the numbers are accurate, is 25 billion less circulating in our economy and eventually ending up in the hands of the corrupt higher ups down there.
It is an issue than cannot be easily justified by only a single scripture. And again, if we are to strictly follow those two scriptures from Leviticus, what about the surrounding scriptures too?
Angel Adrian, I enjoyed your story and Welcome to America. I hope the country does you well.
That bill sounds alot like the USA Dream Act, which would do the same nationally. If an American student from, say Ohio, can't get in-state tuition in Oregon, why should an illegal immigrant? That's putting non-citizens ahead of American citizens. It's not a racial issue, it's a fairness issue.
coboble,
You do not wish for homeless people to stay in your home. You would not invite the homeless in through your front door and stay with you then how about if they come in through the back window instead?
The United States and the State of Oregon is our home. Maybe it's not working out well what then?
coboble,
1) Do you equate all acts which are Illegal with all other acts which are Illegal?
On a basic level yes. Are there acts that are more severe than other most definitly. Question for you where would you draw the line. Keep in mine the line position would be different for someone else.
2) Do you think that anyone who does not do so, does not understand what “Illegal” means?
Do you understand the concept of enacting laws that define what is legal and illegal behavior?
3) What is your view on providing services to U.S. born children of illegal immigrants?
Providing services to US citizens is OK but not to the parents who are illegal. Currently there is a movement to deny citizenship to these children. These childern are being used by the illegal parents to stay and gain legal status. For me the jury is out on this still as there are implications that go past dealing with the abuse by illegals.
As for this kid attending school at instate tuition rate means someone elses child cannot attend the instate universities or colleges. The state sets the total enrollment that will receive matching funds from the state Government. I have no problem with this kid attending state supported colleges at the non-resident tuition rate. It is hard enough for children that are citizens to gain admission at the instate tuition rate without increasing the competition for the few open slots.
Yes, I do understand the concept of enacting laws to define legal and illegal. I also understand the need to do this.
However, the laws enacted are not always moral.
My first preference is to change such laws. However, while they exist, I do not feel like I have to agree with enforcing them.
If people blindly enforced all laws, and never challenged the morality of some laws, what would our laws look like today?
Would it have been wrong for a Northern state, in 1850 after the passing of the Fugitive Slave Act, to not dedicate resources to the capture and return of escaped slaves? It was the law, but it was a very immoral law.
As to where I would personally draw the line, I am still struggling with that one. My self interest is in conflict with my values. I think there is a shadowed area and not a solid line.
For those who still believe the “what is it about illegal you do not understand” sometimes called the “Illegal is Illegal” argument is valid; OR believe if we let people break one law we might just as well ignore all other laws as well, let me know. I have another argument, which falls in the “What should we use our resources for” category instead of the “is the law moral” category.
Lew,
Yes, I do believe that God would desire that people provide for themselves. As far as doing so on their own land, I am not sure what land really belongs to whom.
I don’t think that God wants the immigrant to break our laws, but I think that once they are here he wants me to treat them as I would a citizen.
I am in favor of changing our immigration laws, and including amnesty. I am also for letting in everyone on the waiting list as well (with a security check). And I am not for giving much (if anything) out for free once they are here. (I am not for giving much for free to our own citizens either).
I am very much against those who exploit labor. I think that minimum wage for illegal immigrants should be the same as for citizens, and the same benefits should be paid. If it is easier to become legal, I think it will cut down on this exploitation. As long as people have to stay hidden, for fear of being deported, they are much less likely to report abuse.
NAFTA is a mess. It was corrupted by the large private interests who would benefit from it.
I have issues with a lot of Leviticus. In fact, I was stunned when I found this quote that it was from Leviticus, because Leviticus is one of the books I have often had a hard time excepting as absolute word of God. I usually just stick to what Jesus himself said. Anything I don‘t understand, without the need for someone to interpret it for me, I have decided I do not need to know what means. When I found this quote from Leviticus, I understood it without interpretation. I have a really strong feeling it is the right thing. I changed my vote on three things after I read this quote.
As far as my use of this quote within this discussion; I should have placed the quote out there for thought, but not in a way where I was criticizing someone. I am picking and choosing what I want to believe, and then criticizing someone else for doing the same thing.
Kodiak,
No, I won't let the homeless in my back door, or through my window either. However, I will help to support the local homeless shelter, and will direct people there. I might even take someone in while they are on the shelter waiting list.
The last time I took a family in, I let them live with me for 9 months. When I did kick them out, it was to the local homeless shelter, not to the street. In the shelter the adult had to participate in required counseling. All I had done, by letting them live with me, was to delay this process for 9 months. But I learned from the experience.
coboble,
If you feel the law is wrong then work to have it changed through the appropriate channels. Don't just break it because it offens your sense of morality.
You are just not getting it are you. I am not saying take in the homeless. Look they are coming through your front, back doors and windows. In fact you cannot keep them out. They are digging tunnels to get in. Others are helping them get into your house. They are taking jobs away from you and using your health care. Now they are looking at your retirement. Your sense of moral laws are killing you and robbing you of your future.
So...how about the question at hand:
Should Oregon offer in-state tuition to people who are not US citizens?
Seems the thread got off track just a little...
In a single word NO !
Victoria,
In a previous comment I stated why in-state tuition should not be given to illegan aliens.
Basically to give in-state tuition to illegals means someone else who is a citizen and a resident of Oregon being denied admission to one or more of the state supported universities and colleges. The State fixes the total number of in-state admissions that will receive state matching funds.
I am confused.
Why do we need a new law to let him pay in state tuition?
I think he can already pay in state tuition because he has lived here over 12 months and so have his parents.
I see lots of foriegn students in college. If there is room for them there is room for this kid.
Somebody is not getting it. The foriegn students pay non-resident tuition (full tuition what it actually costs per student). If the subject student was not born here, how long he's been living in Oregon does not matter. If he wishes to apply for a student VISA and pay full tuition then he can go to school.
Giving in-state tuition to illegals is a slap in the face of legal residents who work hard and deserve a chance to attend school.
I am not willing to use taxpayer money (what there is of it) to send illegal aliens to school period. Now if you liberals wish to take up a collection to pay the 'States' matching funds for this student to attend then by all means do so. Just be sure he gets the student visa and the full tuition is paid (his funds plus yours).
He's not a citizen.
To me, in state tuition means that those who have LEGALLY resided in the state whatever the specified length of time is to establish residency are entitled to it.
I see a presumption of first, satisfying the LEGAL precedence of residency.
Someone in violation of the law is not a LEGAL resident, so they arenot entitled to in state tuition.
They are entitled to a ride in the back of an I.C.E. van to the border they ILLEGALLY crossed to be reunited with their home country and to apply for LEGAL re-entry into the country, where they may then satisfy LEGAL requirements of establishing residency or citizenship.
If they are not desiring to become citizens, they are not entitled to any breaks in tuition whatsoever, but may pay regular tuition fees charged to any other LEGAL immigrant or visitor.
As for this particular young man, since Mom admits "We are responsible for him being a criminal," it is also their responsibility to take appropriate steps to follow the law, as it stands, and pony up necessary fees for his alien tution, once they take proper steps, whatever they may be, to become LEGAL immigrants.
I don't know.
(You guys all thought I would say YES, didn't you?).
I am not for throwing him out of the country, but I don't know about the tuition break.
He is very highly likely to become a tax paying citizen, but then so is whomever else gets that slot in college.
"The college is not an "experimental school," but continues to seek more effective ways to present the subject matters of the liberal arts curriculum. - Reed Website"
Never thought I'd see the day when the crowd around here is defending the rights of citizen students to attend such a "liberal" institution. I mean, wouldn't you rather have one of those coveted "open spots" filled with an evil illegal than corrupting the mind of a potential future model American citizen with all that liberal, gay loving education? Isn't that just (potentially) more of that liberal brain washing that takes place in colleges just like Reed?
Anyone done the math yet to see just how much in taxes a year you contribute to Reed college? Are we all getting fussy over pennies here? IF we are to believe what we read in the WW article, then this particular immigrant family is no more a drain on your precious tax dollars than you Mr. or Mrs. legal citizen are.
Here finally is an opportunity to take one of those you all claim are being tread upon, being made the new slave class, to not become one. If you really cared that these people not be taken advantage of, one would think you'd champion any opportunity to pull them from "slavery's" grasp, legal or not. By now you should realize what a facade of an argument that is, although painting your nationalism in compassion is appealing.
Illegal is illegal. Until litigation or legislation gets involved. So what ever it is you don't think those of us with a different opinion "don't get" about "illegal" only demonstrates your inability to grasp that there are no absolutes as long as our's is a society thriving on democracy. And may I remind you, democracy is not always getting your way, and calling the other guy a socialist/terrorist/sympathizer/communist/etc when you don't. I'd call that fascism, but that'd be giving you too much credit. Authoritarianism with a dash of willful ignorance better describes your ideology.
Lastly, if you're of the mindset that God needs to be involved in government and politics, then you better be ready to educate those of us whom you hold a different religious view or interpretations with. For me, keeping God out of government keeps everyone equal in the discussion, and doesn't force me to insinuate "stupidity" upon those who question my alignment of my religious beliefs and political viewpoints.
So, my view (as if you care)? The boy should not be admitted to Reed with subsidized tuition. But at the same time, some changes in the laws for naturalization in cases like his should be made, and more incentives set up to create more opportunities - and less "slaves."
Victoria,
I have given this some more thought. I have a few questions.
In response to “And we should subsidize illegal aliens because????”, I ask this question:
Why should we subsidize anyone (i.e. Legal Residents)?
Kodiak,
Are you saying that the total number of slots in our State Colleges, available for use by Oregon residents is LESS than the total number of slots? Do we pre-allocate some number of slots for non Oregon Resident Students before we even know how many Oregon Students we need to accommodate?
Do we have qualified Oregon students, who are not getting into our State Colleges and Universities, because there is no slot for them (Independent of how it is paid for)?
coboble,
More or less yes when it comes to state funding calculations. Please remember foriegn students and out of state students pay full tuition. The Schools have a maximum number of students that their facilities and staff can handle in any given term.
Outside of returning students the schools go by a first serve basis if all other student qualifications are equal. Some students admission may be delayed until Winter or spring term depending on total enrollment.
For more accurate information I suggest you contact the state board of higher education or one of the local state supported schools to see if there has been any changes in admission policies.
I do not know the answer to the last questions I would point you to either the state board or OSPIRG.
I have been going off my personal experience that is many years old.
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