The NSA phone records spying "scandal". 63% of Americans are in favor of spying on Al Qaeda. The other 37% use the services below. The congress uses this.
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These guys have cried wolf too many times. Come in from out on the ledge. We’re fighting a war.
The NSA computers take the four trillion numbers in the two trillion calls to look for clusters that might suggest terrorist connections.
There is no constitutional protection for information YOU PROVIDE to a third party (phone company?)
There is no surveillance of the person whose phone records are received.
It’s a quadrillion bit program designed to analyze if there are patterns of phone calling. No names, addresses, personal info of any kind is given. No conversation information is given.
The government can –if it sees a pattern of calls—de-anonymize the records.
After 9/11 JetBlue Airways and Northwest Airlines offered privacy protected passenger records to NASA and the Pentagon for research for data mining.
Verizon, Bellsouth, ATT all coorperated with the Gov’t. Qwest didn’t want to without a warrant. That’s nice. Qwest: you’re gone.
59 comments:
Having been in a coma for the last 7 yrs. can someone tell me what coutry I'm in and where mine went?
Having your phone numbers sold to companies interested in boosting marketing efforts is entirely different than the government keeping a database of every phone number you called each day.
Just because there are companies trying to make a buck, doing deals with your personal information doesn't suddenly make it just.
Why don't we all just succumb to the daily body cavity search to prove we aren't terrorists and get it over with.
Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
- Benjamin Franklin
Remember when Republicans wanted the government out of our lives?
If the U.S. doesn't become an Orwellian police state, the terrorists will win!!!
Freedom is on the march!
I am sorry to hear about your medical condition. Are you sure it has been only 7 years. The US and it's still here. For your reading pleasure look up Smith v Maryland, 1979. In the case of phone records your coma must have been closer to 27 years.
If you want an interesting experience. . . . .close your eyes. . . and imagine what would happen if a Democratic president did this. If the noise then coming from the right were real you would be deaf.
Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979)
The police installed a pen register, without a warrant, at the central telephone system in order to obtain phone numbers that petitioner was dialing from his home. A robbery victim had been receiving calls from the alleged robber. The police found that the petitioner had called the victim’s home and charged petitioner with robbery. Petitioner contended that the use of pen registers violated his Fourth Amendment rights. However, the state court did not agree with this contention. Likewise, the Supreme Court held that pen registers do not violate the Fourth Amendment. They may be obtained without a warrant because pen registers are not a search within the traditional sense. Pen registers help uncover numbers that someone has dialed and individuals should not reasonably expect that this information is private since the dialed numbers are automatically shared with the telephone company. Therefore, the Court held that the pen register was a proper form of investigation.
Please describe how this applies to a vast database of ALL phone calls being collected by big brother.
NEWS FLASH,
Bush approval rating down to 29%. Should go even lower with latest revelations. We're headed for the teens.
suomynona,
Easy.
Dear Mr. Phone Company,
There are Al Qaeda sleeper cells here making phone calls please place pen registers on all of your customers and send us the resulting phonew number information.
Thank you,
NSA
After scanning for a calling pattern that is of a suspicious nature a warrant then can be obtained for further investigation.
Any more silly questions.
There are Al Qaeda sleeper cells here making phone calls..
I would think kodiak, if you can say that much, you have enough to request a warrant for a wire tap.
Unless you are just turning all the beds looking for any "terrorist" that may be hiding underneath...
So, we have now gone from tapping "only" calls that are going from inside the U.S. to outside, to also recording all calls (numbers) made to and from inside the U.S.
How much further, and why is all this government involvement into your personal life just peachy with you?
It Can't Happen Here?
The USA PATRIOT Act gives the government a blank check to spy on us, prisoners are being held indefinitely without formal charges, and the Bushies are trying to put a uniformed general in charge of a traditionally civilian agency, the CIA.
In the meantime, a climate of fear and war hysteria is constantly evoked by the semi-official media, and we are told that anyone who questions our policy of perpetual war is aiding and abetting "terrorism."
Do you see a trend here?
It is a frightening trend, one that presages the end of our old Republic and the birth of something entirely new and foreign to American soil: fascism. We face something altogether unprecedented: a regime that, having declared a permanent emergency, is now articulating a legal and political theory that justifies extraordinary abridgements of our liberties in perpetuity.
They can read our e-mails, they can eavesdrop on our conversations, they can spy on dissident groups, and they don't make any bones about it. They claim to be exporting "democracy" and liberty abroad - while, at home, they shrink our liberties.
Here's something you can do about domestic spying.
suomynona,
The pen recorders are collecting phone numbers that are being called. From that information they are looking at a pattern of calls that would be indicative of a potential terrorist cell. With that information a warrant then can be obtained for further investigation.
There are approximately 300 million people in the US. How would you go looking for the needle in the hay stack?
How are you with the phone company selling this information? It is not peachy with me, I will be extremely upset if the Government start paying me visits about who I am talking to. As long as my life goes on with out interference by the Government then I am not going to have a hissy fit over this.
We need a certain amount of toleriance to help route out the sleeper cells. It does us no good to get worked up and making a lot of noise about such activities. That does not mean we are blind. The Government no matter how well meaning needs to be watched like a hawk less they do go too far.
Outside of news article would you have ever known about the program?
john,
Nice try Qwest actually got it wrong. The pen recorders are legal (see Smith v Maryland). It will not supprise me that Qwest eventully gives the info to the NSA.
It is not peachy with me, I will be extremely upset if the Government start paying me visits about who I am talking to. As long as my life goes on with out interference by the Government then I am not going to have a hissy fit over this.
You might as well say "I'm ok with genocide...as long as they don't start killing my family."
(I'd say that is an extreme example, but not really...)
You're flip flopping kodiak, better be careful...
suomynona,
Stop with the wet fish scenarios. It is so far over the line ya fell off the planet. It is not even close.
I am not flip flopping. I do have a point where I would have a hissy fit.
My point is if there was no news article this discussion would have taken place period.
Your question should have asked "Kodiak do you really think anybody should have access to your phone records?"
Actually I am more upset about the phone companies selling my information. I am all for doing something about that.
The Government until the court reverses it's decision or Congress passes a law against the pen recorders I do not have a problem with it. I believe the court has it right, there can be no expectation of privacy since you have to share the number that is being called.
Instead of being upset about this how about we give Congress some direction on our expectations that the information will be very carefully evaluated to catch the bad guys without unnecessarily injuring American civilians.
When asked, the Democrat Senators have refused to call for repeal or changes to existing law re terrorist investigations. This is all more flatulence from the idiot left, and even their own "leaders" are too cowardly to walk their talk. No surprise to me. How do our resident wingnuts respond?
Still waiting for the Kodiak and Bear to explain how we catch more terrorists without a warrant, we are safer without the 4th Ammendment, and they are happy to provide a full inventory of their personal firearms.
Yeah, I thought so.
Still waiting for the Kodiak and Bear to explain how we catch more terrorists without a warrant, we are safer without the 4th Ammendment, and they are happy to provide a full inventory of their personal firearms.
Yeah, I thought so.
Victoria: The Bush Government will find out that i've been calling your Radio Show if they get a hold of my phone records. The secret will be out. They'll be after me. The Attorney General will send the police after me and break in and arrest me at 5:00am. Help. Oh my GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Come on Klatu, fight terrorism, and register your guns.
klatu:
They may wait until 7 AM. That way, they can have their morning coffee before they come for you.
Kodiak and Bear, With all the protesting that Backwards is doing here, I wonder if he has something to hide. Huuuuuuuuhhh?
Or, in the words of Shakespeare, "Methinks thou protesteth too much".
Maybe, when the next terrorist attack comes, and it will, Backwards and his fellow naysayers, will sing a different tune. Or maybe not. Then they will whine about to government not doing enought to protect us.
Damned if wwe do and damned if we don't. Typical liberal philosophy.
Heh, looks who's telling who to go "lay down by their bowl" now, scottie.
If this program is strictly about protecting the nation from potential terrorists, what would have been the harm to the administration of going to the FISA court and seeking a warrant. Given that the NSA was going to be analyzing records which existed and were being maintained by the phone companies, the argument that the phone companies would be changing or destroying these records sounds strained at best. While a terrorist might throw away a cell phone or purge a computer, the phone companies don't do that with their records. Then the administration would have obtained the records and silenced its critics on its critics on this point. President Bush would then sound much more credible when he asserts that he is protecting the nation and safeguarding our civil liberties. It seems the only argument for skipping a warrant is that the administration wanted to look tough and establish a precedent of limitless power, and that is what really rankles the critics.
Backwards, I don't have a problem with someone listening in on my calls. I have nothing to hide.
What I object to is all the naysayers whining about the government "listening" to calls that may prevent another surprise like we had on 9-11. We really don't need another one like that, or worse. If giving up a bit of freedom to prevent something like that happening again, then it is worth it.
Hey Communists: The AG I was talking about was Janet-el-Reno,remember Slick willie & billerys AG, Kidnapping Elian Gonzales at 5:00am and sending this young boy back to a Country you _ _ _ _ _ - Communists Love called CUBAAAAAA.
Remember Slick Willie with his
FBI Files on Political enemies you _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Communists. I don't give a rats _ _ _ _ ----___ what phone records the Bush Government has on me. I'm no ANTI-American like you blanking _ _ _ _ _thats actually siding with Terrorists. Hell I'll tell you _ _ _ _ _ Communists who I call. Most Calls are to Democrat Socialists in Washington DC and Believe Me I have spoiled there days many times, and I suspect they have broken many phones slamming them down. You _ _,_ _ _
Communists deserve to be in the Permenent Minority and I intend to help keep it that way. Hell you _ _ _ _ are chicken to call in to Victoria. _ - - _ just move to a Socialist Country _ _ _ _ _ . you'll feel so much betterrrrrrrrr.
Threlfeld If you want an interesting experience. . . . .close your eyes. . . and imagine what would happen if a Democratic president did this.
May I suggest you research the Echelon Program inititated by the Clinton administration and seek the outcry.
Please post results.
WSDIf this program is strictly about protecting the nation from potential terrorists, what would have been the harm to the administration of going to the FISA court and seeking a warrant.
As I understand it, this program is used to see calling patterns to certain numbers so they can have what is needed to seek warrants for further seraching.
All it is is numbers, no names, addresses or content.
Would Liberal prefer agents stand outside of Mosques and Churches and ask people as they exit is they are Al Qaeda members?
klatu:
Calling a congressional staff membrs, ruining that person's day, and getting that person to slam down the phone on you -- is this how you demonstrate the maturity, rationality, and decency of your political views?
I have known many conservatives, klatu, men and women for whom I have very high respect, and one of the ruels by which they have consistently abided is that they are unfailingly courteous. In this regard, I emphasize the word unfailingly.
By your own admission, it appears you are unable to say the same for yourself.
And tell me: after you have telephoned a congressional staff member and been so rude that the staff member has slammed the phone down in response to your comments, do you believe that you have moved the Congressperson to a more or to a less sympathetic understanding of your point of view?
mongo7,
If you have read any of my posts in this thread you would already know that you do not have any 4th Amendment rights to the phone numbers you dial. That was decided back in 1979 while your good old boy carter was in office.
I am not having a hissy fit over something that the US supreme court say that I have no expectation of privacy that is phone records of numbers dialed.
Instead of me explaining how to catch terrorists you do it.
Wait I know how you would do it... Wait until the next attack and send out the keystone cops.
One thing the Bush administration says it can do with this [NSA] meta-data-[gathering] is to start tapping your calls and listening in, without getting a warrant from anyone. Having listened in on your calls, the administration asserts that if it doesn't like what it hears, it has the authority to detain you indefinitely without trial or charges, torture you until you confess or implicate others, extradite you to a Third World country to be tortured, ship you to a secret prison facility in Eastern Europe, or all of the above. If, having kidnapped and tortured you, the administration determines you were innocent after all, you'll be dumped without papers somewhere in Albania left to fend for yourself. Apart from that, American liberty is alive and well.
Gee is that why only one American citizen has been detained?
Okay, American's can allow stealing presidential elections, lying about ignored intelligence regarding 9/11, invading countries, torture, banning gay anything, outing CIA agents, ignoring American's in a time of crisis, environmental genocide, human genocide, but finding out who we talk to on phones is going too far? WAKE UP AMERICA, THAT SMELL ISN'T THE COFFEE!!
That's right moderatelew way too far. By the way where were you back in 1979 when the Government started using pen recorders (see Smith v Maryland).
Well WestsideCommunistDavy: Your right I personally don't go by those rules when it comes to Human Debris of the American Communist Type. People like me are their Biggest Nightmare. And thats why your in the minority Davy. We've had enough of you _ _ _ _ _ _. You'll always be in the Minority Davy. And if the President has seen your Phone RECORDS - Well good. At least it will prove that you and your fellow COMRADES (have or have not) been talking to al-quida. At least Transcripts of your phone calls won't end up on the FRONT PAGE OF THE COMMUNIST "NEW YORK TIMES", like what happened to Newt Gingrich in 1997 by Kiev Countys James McDermott.
Klatu, you're a spell-checker's worst nightmare, but that's about it.
I'm starting to think he's a "character" made up to troll for responses. Nobody could be so inarticulate and stunningly ignorant to others. Uhh ... right?
Okay, American's can allow stealing presidential elections,
Bogus claim
lying about ignored intelligence regarding 9/11,
Bogus claim
invading countries,
Justified
torture,
Prosecuted
banning gay anything,
Please document any bans placed on gays or other minorities.
outing CIA agents,
Was no longer an agent and apparently was "outed" by her own husband. However, why no outcry over sensitive intelligence matters being exposed in the press?
ignoring American's in a time of crisis,
Talk to the Democrat Mayor and Governor. Neighboring RTepublican states that suffered more didn't experience near the problems.
environmental genocide,
Still drinking Algores kool aid?
human genocide,
Uh, Rwanda and Kosovo happened under the previous administration.
finding out who we talk to on phones is going too far?
Findong out who Al Qeada is talking to isn't much to ask, unless you wish your women wearing Burkhas and being beheaded for putting on lipstick.
WAKE UP AMERICA, THAT SMELL ISN'T THE COFFEE!!
No, it's the usual bovine scatology emanating from the left when they are desperately trying to regain power by a coup de tat of misleading words and accusations.
Hey 29 percenters, the other shoe has dropped.
A senior federal law enforcement official" has told ABC News investigative reporters Brian Ross and Richard Esposito that federal authorities are tracking the phone numbers that they call in an attempt to uncover their confidential sources.
"It's time for you to get some new cell phones, quick," the source reportedly told Ross and Esposito.
They write that they don't know whether the effort is linked to the program revealed by USA TODAY last Thursday, in which the government has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans.
Ross and Esposito add that "other sources have told us that phone calls and contacts by reporters for ABC News, along with The New York Times and The Washington Post, are being examined as part of a widespread CIA leak investigation."
Hey moderate,
While you panic I will calmly go about my business un-troubled by this news. Ya see you have no expectation of privacy to the phone numbers that you dial per a 1979 US Supreme Court Ruling (See Smith v Maryland). About time you have caught up to the rest of us.
Well the chickens have finally come home to roost. Out of fear or to gain personal access to power, the media ignored their job for 6+ years when other people's rights were trampled and lies were being told by this administration for the sole purpose of accomplishing its objectives over the voices of opposition. It was only a matter of time before the media found itself the victim of an administration that has no regard for the constitution or any rule of law, and that has no ethical or moral compass. Now it is finally indisputable the wire taps have in many cases nothing to do with national security and are more about quashing Americans' freedom of speech and their right to be informed what their elected officials are doing in their name and with their money. One can only hope the media will immediately do its utmost to inform the public so that even the most ardent of the administration's supporters will see past their blind spot and self interests to the dangers to our form of government that have come with Bush and company.
Since the media is obviously to blame for most of the perceived problems in this country in some cases they refuse to follow along their issued Talking Points and instead insist on speaking for themselves, they could and should be monitored in the strictest manner possible for terrorist connections.
Let's face it - the media is far too complicit in reporting the wrong side in the War on Terror. They seem to think that people care about the deaths of all people, not just people the terrorists are killing. Whereas all right-thinking Americans rightly believe that all bad news ultimately comes from terrorists, those who provide this bad news may as well be terrorists themselves. Therefore, not only should the government monitor the phone calls of everyone at the media, they should be forced to do their "work" in internment camps, lest they think they are getting away with anything.
Until we restrict the rights of all media members to only report on what the government tells them is true, none of us will ever be free.
Hey mongo7,
Why don't you and moderate take a tranquilizer and call us in the morning. Your Paranoia is irritating and illogical. There has been only one American Citizen detained so far.
You have not lost anything. If you are involved in something illegal then you should be worried.
Go and live your life and ignore stuff that you have no control over anyway.
Hey moderate,
Answer this question:
Are we or are we not at war?
Moderatelew, maybe we should stop acting like Second Amendment types.
Kodiak,
The question is not "are we or are we not at war?" The question is who are we at war with? Terrorists? Critics?" "The Media?" "The Constitution?"
So you agree that we are at war. Good.
Terrorists and countries that support them. (With for some reason exceptions to the rule.)
Some how we have colectively forgotten the WWII saying. Loose lips sink ships.
Critics and the media have gone out of their way to help the other side. So far as much as they deserve it they have not been locked up. I guess that the Constitution in fact has not been torn up as some would have us believe.
That doe not mean we do not keep an eye on the Government and media, just not have a hissy fit on que as some would like us to.
mongo7,
You should act naturally.
Kodiak,
Exceptions to the rule (Egypt, Dubai, Saudi Arabia)
Somehow we have collectively forgotten that in WWII Japanese Americans were interred.
“Critics and media have gone out of their way to help the other side?” Very subjective. Who are you talking about? All critics? All media? Just those who disagree with Bushco? Outing CIA agents for political purposes, NSA collection telephone records of millions of Americans, wiretapping reporters without a warrant. I guess the Constitution is just fine in your world. No thank you.
Kodiak,
So you are willing to register your firearms if it assists the war on terrorism. At least you are consistent.
moderate,
There you go again. I have cited the legal basis that the pen recorders are being used (Smith v Maryland, 1979). Please note the date of the court case.
There is some disagreement whether Plame was a covert agent or someone working a desk job at Langely. Since no one has been indicted for revealing her name your statement is premature. Also her husband being selected by teh CIA was political. I do not see any complaints by you about that.
NSA collecting phone numbers dialed is legal (see court case). You you be as upset if Portland Police was doing the very same thing. No warrant is required!!!!
I believe that the pen recorders are being used against the reporters, that is legal. And is not wiretaping with would require a warrant and they better get one. I hate it when law enforcement screws up and the sudject gets off.
Don't take my word for it you know how to google. Search for 'Smith v Maryland'
I did not say that nor is anyone asking people to do so. Gun Control is a liberal talking point.
Nice try though.
Exactly,
I simply treasure the 4th Amendment as you do the 2nd.
Mongo7,
Use of the pen recorders is not subject to a warrant as required by the 4th (see Smith v Maryland, 1979). Please note the year of the ruling. You do not have an expectation of privacy to the phone numbers you dial period. Thus no warrant is required. Now if they want to listen in they need a warrant for that. Even the President agrees to that. Except if you are talking to your al qaeda friend.
Basically if an al qaeda terrorist calls you don't answer.
You do not want the numbers you dial to be recorded then don't dial.
You have to place some trust in both the Administration and the select commitees on intelegence to ensure that this program does not creep and unnecessarily harm legimate citizens and target those they claim to be after. Just keep an eye on both the Administration and congress.
A senior federal law enforcement official"
Of course, you do know that means a janitor at the FBI building, right?
Odd they never name these "senior" officials, but can't wait to name administration officials.
klatu:
Thank you for your response. I admire your candor. You admit that in dealing with those with whom you disagree, you feel no compuction about behaving rudely. In taking this attitude, I think you alienate many true conservatives, who feel that part of being a conservative is to adhere to the classic rules of courtesy.
WestDavidCommunistside: Remember Davy this is about Phone Records here not Liberal Pyscho babble. But to answer your question, Yea most Socialist Liberals probably think that I am "RUDE". Their "YOUR" value systems are opposite Concervatives. The word "Courtesy", Conservative people finally woke up to the old "NICE GUYS FINNISH LAST" along time ago. Do you remember the term "THE SILENT MAJORITY. Were not Silent anymore.
Nice guys FINNISH LAST only in Helsinki.
klatu, you give yourself too much credit. I'm sure those you call hang up on you in irritation and frustration because they can't understand a f*#%ing word you say!
suomynona:
I disagree to a degree. I think people who are required to deal with klatu often understand at least some of his words. But consider: when the kindergarten bully cornered you the first time, and you had no way to retreat, you might have given up whatever he wanted, because you had no effective way to respond. Soon you learned how to avoid him, how to ally yourself with others, how to stay out of his way, and eventually how to punch him hard enough that he back off. But did you ever really try to understand his position and help him get exactly what he wanted? I doubt it.
In the same way, klatu calls a congressional staff member, someone he has already written off in his own strange system as not deserve the decency of courtesy. He screams at this person until the staffer hangs up on him. Even if the staffer understood what klatu wanted, do you really think she or he will hurry to her congressman boss and urge him to change his ways to adhere to the views that klatu is trying to articulate. I doubt it. If the staffer reports the call at all, it is probably a quick note or "The rude man [not gentleman] from Oregon telephoned again; because of his profanity I discontinued the call." Note that there is not attempt to report the substance of the call.
And what if later that cay a conservative with some courtesy calls. That person may be able to get a message of ssubstance through to the congressman. And to whose views will the congressman give greater consideration.
For klatu, perhaps the best that can be said is that while nice guys finish last, the rude do not finish at all -- people hang up on them.
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